PB 2012-02-09 debate
From Pirate Party of Canada
[20:38] <@Rintaran> Welcome to the debate everyone. I'll be your moderator for the evening. [20:40] <@Rintaran> People with questions are encouraged to blurt them in the #debate channel. I will pick them up and pass them on to the candidates. Allotting each candidate a few moments to respond to each question [20:40] <@Rintaran> The candidates will then have the chance to respond to each other for a limited time before we move on to the next question. [20:41] <@Rintaran> First I would like to give the candidates 5-minutes to introduce themselves. The order has been pre-picked, at random, using a hat in my basement. [20:42] <@Rintaran> The first candidate will be Johann. Johann, you have the floor for your opening comments. [20:43] <+JohannWeiss> So introduction.... If we haven't communicated before, I'm Johann Weissgerber. I've been active in the party since the last general election when I was asked to help out with Travis's campaign [20:44] <+JohannWeiss> I've always been interested in politics and philosophy. [20:44] *** Rintaran sets mode -v JMcleod [20:44] <+JohannWeiss> And I guess I've thought the youth generation needed a good political movement [20:44] <+JohannWeiss> The internet is a great place for it, so the Pirate Party seemed right [20:45] <+JohannWeiss> I really agree with Falkvinge's work, at least what I've read of it [20:45] <+JohannWeiss> Yeah, I don't really know what else to say. If anyone has any questions for me just ask (I guess in one of the other channels?) [20:46] *** PirateFox has joined #council [20:46] <@Rintaran> Alright. Thank-you Johann. Shawn Vulliez, you're next. [20:47] *** drew has joined #council [20:48] <@svulliez> Hello, I've been involved since around the time there was internal debate about whether or not to support WikiLeaks (I was outspokenly pro-wikileaks, whistleblowers, journalism) and I was elected to a Director-At-Large position in the last by-election. [20:48] *** Revan343 has joined #council [20:49] <@svulliez> I too follow falkvinge and generally agree with his viewpoints. I've appeared in the media a few times for the party recently and during Election 41. [20:49] *** Sabre1 has joined #council [20:49] *** Unknown command: ? [20:49] *** The help command is not supported. [20:50] <@svulliez> I feel as though I've been a bit "ahead of the curve"- suggesting things long before the rest of the council comes to agree with me. It's been frustrating but also immensely satisfying to be involved with the party, and I look forward to continuing. [20:50] <@svulliez> I was also an organizer/facilitator at Occupy Winnipeg and I've brought a lot of new support to the party since getting involved. [20:50] <@svulliez> I'll cut myself off here. [20:51] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Shawn. Finally, James Wilson, could you please introduce yourself? [20:51] <+Wilson> My name is James Wilson and I joined the party during the last election. What interested me most was the committment to open government and to allowing candidates a greater measure of freedom. As I 've read up on IP issues I've also come to value the party's stance on looser IP law. [20:53] *** TravisMcCrea|Work has joined #council [20:53] *** Rintaran sets mode +v TravisMcCrea|Work [20:53] <+Wilson> I've been active on the forums but with the delay of the leadership vote I have become more active finding volunteers for the party and doing things myself rather then waiting for others. Currently I'm in the process of getting confirmation from MP C. Angus whether the C-11 petition is written well enough to be presented to the House. [20:55] <+Wilson> I've advocated the party having a more aggressive stance to sending out press releases, basically every thing that could be called a newspaper. Especially student newspapers where I feel we can pick up alot of support. [20:55] <@Rintaran> Thank-you James. Travis McCrea, could you please take 5 minutes to introduce yourself. [20:57] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Okay, well I am Travis McCrea from Vancouver, BC. I am the owner of TorMovies and TUEBL I also am in an ongoing campaign to acquire websites that are running fully legal operations who the owners feel pressured to close them down, and taking responsibility for them to keep the websites open (as I did with TUEBL and TorMovies). [20:59] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I ran for parliament in the last elections, I didn't come in last place and many people approached me telling me that I was a great speaker and that the only reason they were not going to vote for me was because they already had their party decided. I was told that there would be a seat for me to run for by both the Green Party and the NDP if I would join their parties. I have remained a Pirate be [20:59] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> cause I genuinely believe that we have unique platforms and that we can be a strong force in Canadian politics if we treat our roll seriously. [21:00] <@Rintaran> And that concludes our introductions. Absent this evening are Patrick Fitzgerald, Steve Henderson, Jake Daynes, Andrii Zvorygin, and latecomer Christoph Leon. [21:00] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I have been a pirate for a long time, and I am an active blogger on Falkvinge.net who is a direct mentor of mine and the founder of the Pirate Party movement [21:01] <@Rintaran> For those just tuning in. Please ask your questions in #debate. I will be picking them up and referring them to the candidates. Each candidate will have two minutes to present their view. [21:01] <@Rintaran> Following all candidates presentation, the candidates will then be given 1-minute rebuttals to their fellows stances, should they choose to use it. [21:02] <+JohannWeiss> I don't have any rebuttal [21:02] <@Rintaran> The first question comes to us from handler, who asks "What is going to be done with the PiratePartyCanada reddit?" Feel free to expand your response to all of the PPCA's social media as it applies to the same question. [21:02] <@Rintaran> We'll begin this round with Shawn Vulliez. [21:03] <@svulliez> I think that we should set strict standards for use within a community of volunteers, and involve as many social media outlets as possible. [21:04] <@svulliez> I'm personally leaning towards having no anonymous personal opinions posted from the name "pirate party", and focus more on providing relevant links and information. [21:05] <@svulliez> I think I have a few novel ideas on how to follow through on social media and make it engaging and non-offensive, but it's going to require more collaborative discussion. [21:06] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Shawn, I'm afraid that's your two minutes. James Wilson, you're next on the digital podium. [21:06] <@svulliez> Engaging the people who are doing to social media posting to build their own standards collaboratively is going to be a good thing. [21:06] <+Wilson> Confession: I rarely use reddit but I do feel it is important for reaching a wider audience(just as our Facebook is) Handled well it will increase our visability, handled poorly it can do real harm. [21:07] *** JakeDaynes has joined #council [21:07] *** Rintaran sets mode +v JakeDaynes [21:07] <+Wilson> We need a group dedicated to our social media presence I feel and I would be willing to help with that should the rest of the board agree [21:08] <+Wilson> *end* [21:08] <@Rintaran> Thank-you James. Travis, if you please. [21:08] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I feel that we need to have a controlled message out of our social media profiles on the Pirate Party's platforms and positions. Today we had a great example of a circumstance where just letting anyone use our profiles without guidelines created a problem: We had a member who posted a comment that encouraged copyright infringement as a patriotic measure. he did state "this is my own personal opini [21:08] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> on" but it doesn't matter because people see it associated with the PPCA brand. We also need to start using other profiles that we promote such as Diaspora and/or Identica while understanding that abusive as they may be, many people still use Twitter / Facebook and if we want to get the attention of those people we must also be using those platforms [21:09] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We do, however, need to seriously get better at social media... we are a tech savvy party who is getting shown up by Conservatives in social media. That's just sad. [21:09] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> *end* [21:10] <@Rintaran> Thanks Travis. We've been joined by Jake Daynes, who is next in our "order" for this question. [21:11] <@Rintaran> To reiterate the question: "What is going to be done with the PiratePartyCanada reddit?" Feel free to expand your response to all of the PPCA's social media as it applies to the same question. [21:11] <+JakeDaynes> /nod [21:11] *** PirateFox has left #council [21:12] *** Sabre1 has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving. [21:13] <+JakeDaynes> As far as Reddit goes, it's been proven to be a quality avenue for communicating to people within the stereotypical "Pirate" Demographic. That simply isn't enough anymore though. We need to start expanding this through further use of other platforms such as Identica as mentioned by TravisMcCrea|Work [21:13] <+JakeDaynes> As stated, there is no reason we cannot use these platforms as well if not better than any other party or organization, based on our background [21:14] <+JakeDaynes> I think we need to invest more effort into contacting people outside of our demographic, through the use of social media and other avenues of communication [21:14] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [21:14] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Jake. Johann, if you please. [21:14] <+JohannWeiss> Some of this may sound similar to the other candidates, but that's just cause we have similar ideas sometimes. Having a specific team who works our social media is a good idea. It provides some accountability while also utilizing members abilities. [21:15] <+JohannWeiss> I think we should be using reddit much more then we already are because it is a very simple form of crowdsourcing [21:16] <+JohannWeiss> Getting input from the general public is something we should be doing better then the other parties. The Internet provides us with great tools and reddit is one of them [21:16] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [21:17] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Johann. Each candidate will now have up to one minute for rebuttals or additions. This will play out in reverse order of the question, ending with the last person who spoke. As such, Jake Daynes, do you wish to use your minute to respond? [21:17] *** Sabre has joined #council [21:18] <+JakeDaynes> In this case, I would rather use it to prepare my introductions and catch up on the log of what I missed [21:18] <@Rintaran> Alright Jake. In that case, Travis. [21:19] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We pretty much seem to agree. I would be concerned though if any canidate does not want to have a controlled message. [21:19] <@Rintaran> James. [21:20] <+Wilson> This is a question for Shawn V.: You have stated on the forums you would like to make a members only site and have reddit for outsider, is this a fair assessment and if so can you elaborate on it. [21:20] <+Wilson> *end* [21:21] <@Rintaran> Shawn, you're up. [21:22] <@svulliez> Yes, it is. I am open to a variety of options on how we manage our site, but I am currently convinced that having onsite forums open to the public is not important. [21:22] <@svulliez> Social media is perfect for interacting with nonmembers. [21:23] <@svulliez> I am open to having public and private sections of the site, but I am dedicated to having some sections be members-only. [21:23] <@svulliez> I see a lot of good reason to do so, for strategic purposes, to incentivize membership further, and to foster a sense of community. [21:23] <@Rintaran> That's time Shawn. And finally, Johann, any parting words on this question [21:24] *** Revan343 has quit IRC: Quit: Tsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss [21:25] <+JohannWeiss> I agree with what Shawn just said. I also want to point out that even though I agree we need to have some accountability and control for our outbound messages on social media, I don't think that's our worst problem in this issue. [21:25] <+JohannWeiss> We need to be fluid and utilize our members abilities better then we have, so that we are actually able to put out a message. [21:26] <@Rintaran> And that wraps up our first question. Candidates are invited to put additional details in their forum threads after the debate if they wish to explain further. [21:26] <+JohannWeiss> If we spend to long worried about making any mistakes we'll make the bigger mistake of not producing a meaningful and timely message [21:27] <@Rintaran> Now, we were joined by Jake Daynes a few minutes late into the proceeding. As such, he will be allotted five minutes to introduce himself. Jake, if you please. [21:27] <+JakeDaynes> Thank you Rintaran [21:27] <+JakeDaynes> Many of you know me, however, some of you may not. [21:27] <+JakeDaynes> I've been involved with the party since its conception in Canada, and have done my best over the past 3 years to help it grow as much as possible in such a short time. As many of you will know, I have had my fair share of personal issues that at times removed me from my activity in the party. [21:27] <+JakeDaynes> I have since spent the past six months working to remove myself from the people in my life that I associate with such issues. I have done this in order to return to the party and assist it in any way possible. [21:28] <+JakeDaynes> I have been a strong supporter of the party since I heard about the Swedish Pirat Partiet, and have since then come to understand conversational swedish in order to facilitate international communication. [21:29] <+JakeDaynes> I'm a bilingual Japanese/English Speaker as well, and hope that I can assist in the Party's communications with other Pirate Partys [21:29] <+JakeDaynes> I welcome any and all questions anybody might have for me, no matter how small they might seem [21:29] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [21:30] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Jake. Our next question comes to us from yeho who asks "How can we ensure that direct action to effect change is carried out, rather than "slacktivist" things like online petitions, twitter updates and general statements of disagreement?" [21:30] <@Rintaran> James, could you please start us off this time? [21:30] <+Wilson> sure [21:33] <+Wilson> Well, we need to recognize first that the forum is a place to propose ideas and that by itself is not action. The things you mentioned are a step above but we should do more. physical petitions to the House which legally require a response is one, having the party collectively bug MPs is another. Or like with the electronic leviatnan, actually teaching about [21:33] <+Wilson> ...ways to get around censorship and spying is another [21:34] <@Rintaran> I'm sorry James, but that's two+ minutes. Travis, you're next. [21:34] <+Wilson> *end* [21:34] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> First, I don't think that we should stray away from things like Online Petitions. When I was running for parliament, OpenMedia put up a "mail your candidate" thing to discuss digital issues. Needless to say my inbox was flooded, and I was having a hard time keeping up with legitimate emails through all the OpenMedia stuff. Obviously I was already for it, but if I was not, it would be very hard to [21:34] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> ignore such extreme measures. [21:34] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We need to be on the street, every day... and where we can't support a daily movement, we need to be on the ground every weekend. We should be using power washers to clean sidewalks while also putting a Pirate Party logo / slogan there using a metal stencil so we can both help our community AND get our name out there [21:36] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We need to be "light bombing" "sound bombing" and maybe seed bombing every place we can. Get involved in our local makerspaces, and make sure each of them know who we are and that we are there to protect their right to hack things. We don't need to DO as much, but enable the attitude within our supporters for them to feel confident to go out and do things [21:37] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Travis. Jake, you're next. [21:37] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Have a few Pirate Party sponsored events always with the message that "you should go out and do this stuff on your own too... find your own friends who are not Pirates and do these non-law-breaking activist things. Yes we need to be taken seriously, and I don't want us to look silly [21:37] <+JakeDaynes> As I have said previously on the forums and in other conversations, I believe that promoting more local meet-ups is the first step in ensuring that we move away from slacktivism, and more into the realm of activism. [21:37] <+JakeDaynes> Promotions such as Card drops in public locations with a URL on them to help peak curiosity are key to generating interest. [21:38] <+JakeDaynes> I believe we need to partner with other 3rd parties in order to leverage our combined resources, this includes member base [21:38] *** svulliez has quit IRC: Quit: svulliez [21:38] <+JakeDaynes> We have 2600 people that were interested enough to sign up, and many to pay $10. Why shouldn't we be able to encourage them to go outside for a day? [21:38] <+JakeDaynes> Because we haven't been trying hard enough. [21:39] <@Rintaran> Thanks Jake. Johann, the floor is yours. [21:39] *** svulliez has joined #council [21:39] *** ChanServ sets mode +o svulliez [21:39] <+JohannWeiss> I disagree with the derision often associated with what yeho calls 'slacktivist'. Petitions and protests are some of the more direct actions a political party can take. We should be cultivating our membership into taking petitions into the physical world so we can engage in the non-internet users [21:39] <+JohannWeiss> (also paper is still seen as more legitimate then electronic [21:39] <+JohannWeiss> ) [21:40] <+JohannWeiss> If we can emphasize crowd-sourcing as the basis for our party, I believe our members will feel that they can make more of an impact. This is the best way to encourage them to become physically active [21:41] <+JohannWeiss> Assuming we also organize local events [21:41] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Johann. Shawn, could you please round this one out? [21:42] <@svulliez> If we want to do "non-slacktivist" things we have to reach out to people with technical, communications, and artistic abilities. The way we can do this is by building an incredible platform and maintaining a positive public image. [21:42] <@svulliez> We also need to be aware of what things are going to push away artists, programmers, and those of specific ideologies and avoid them whenever possible. [21:43] <@svulliez> I don't think that all slacktivism is necissarily that bad. I reject the term in a lot of it's use. There are a lot of good things that come out of less physically tangible forms of activism. [21:44] <@svulliez> The most important thing that we can do is spreading information. Yeho's Infosheet is a good example of this. It could be called, slacktivism, but I think it's important. [21:44] <@svulliez> The internet is an extremely valuable tool for spreading information and infecting others with our viewpoints. [21:44] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Shawn. In the interests of saving time, would anyone like a minute to respond to any points? Please indicate "yes" if you do, after 1-minute it will be assumed "no" [21:44] <@svulliez> I don't think we should entirely discredit it. [21:45] <+JohannWeiss> no [21:45] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> no [21:45] <+Wilson> no [21:45] <+JakeDaynes> no [21:45] <@svulliez> no.... [21:45] <@Rintaran> The next question comes to us from trailblazer. He asks "As prospective leader(s) of the so-called Pirate Party, how do you justify encouraging people to commit wholesale theft from hardworking Canadian artists? Don't you believe that they deserve to get paid for writing music and creating movies that you enjoy?" [21:46] <@Rintaran> Travis, it's your turn to begin. [21:46] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> lol well this is a question of questions... [21:47] <@Rintaran> Correction, the question is from xmux. [21:48] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I run a booksharing website and a torrent website, I don't lose sleep at night. I believe that artists can make money under a "pirate canada" and that the first step in that process is moving away from traditional distribution methods. THat said, I don't think Canada should encourage or endorse copyright infringement. I feel that we should focus more on the fact that you cannot STOP copyright infr [21:48] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> ingement without invading civil liberties [21:48] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> a broken business model is not worth giving up our rights for [21:48] <@Rintaran> And I'm afraid we're now beyond your two minutes. Jake, if you please. [21:48] <+JakeDaynes> I don't believe that personal filesharing is theft, I believe it is a tool for artists to utilize. Artists now have access to the most sophisticated and efficient marketing tool in the history of human-kind: The internet. [21:49] <+JakeDaynes> Technology changes, and Business models and economies need to adapt to continue growing. [21:49] <+JakeDaynes> I feel strongly in the idea that artists can continue to make a living with new technologies [21:49] <+JakeDaynes> and I do not believe that artists should be able to make money off of something they made 20 years or 50 years ago [21:50] <+JakeDaynes> As an artist myself - once I have had my temporary monopoly, I believe my work is part of the global culture, and needs to be shared to survive [21:50] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [21:50] <@Rintaran> Johann, please continue. [21:50] <+JohannWeiss> Theft is removing something from someone's posession. I don't beleive it's possible to steal information because the person still has the information. I don't believe you should be able to profit off of someone elses work, but standard file-sharing doesn't involve profit. [21:50] <+JohannWeiss> I've actually written an article on Travis's blog (piratewho.org) this past week, on this exact issue. It is inccorect to assume that artists lose sales due to file-sharing, there are numerous studies that show this is false. [21:51] <+JohannWeiss> No loss of sales means it's not an issue. [21:51] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [21:51] <@Rintaran> Shawn, you're next. [21:51] <@svulliez> I think that the best course of action for artists and labels is to innovate to deal with the new economy of information. Piracy will cease to be a problem if they offer convenient services at reasonable problems. [21:52] <@svulliez> Because of the open structure of the internet, there is not a legislative solution to their problem. Criminalizing consumers is just going to disenfranchise them. Pirates are going to be able to innovate around restrictions [21:52] <@svulliez> It's up to labels and artists to entice consumers more effectively than file-sharers. [21:53] <@svulliez> I too am an artists who has experienced a loss of profits due to copying. I was frustrated to see my cartoons all over the internet without my permission, but I now understand how there are better ways to prevent unwanted sharing and profit from my work. [21:53] <@svulliez> Profiteering off of borrowed work is wrong, and removing credit is wrong, and it should be possible to prosecute along these lines. But criminalizing the transfer of a file from one computer to another is a waste of time and resources. [21:53] <@svulliez> *end* [21:53] <@Rintaran> And finally James, could you please answer the question? [21:53] <+Wilson> First off piracy is not theft in an actual or symbolic way. I do deserve artists deserve to earn a reasonable profit. Reasonable, not total. In this day and age artists provide a service. It will be the quality and convienance of this service that determines profit, not clinging to outdated ip law [21:53] <+Wilson> *believe [21:54] <+Wilson> for a well reasoned argument how ip law is actually harmful I suggest the book 'Against intellectual monopoly' [21:54] <+Wilson> *end* [21:54] <@Rintaran> Thank-you. Would anyone like a minute to respond to any points? Please indicate "yes" if you do, after 1-minute it will be assumed "no". If all candidates decline, we can move to the next question. [21:55] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I would just like a quick yes or no, since I seem to be the only person who directly answered the question: As leader, would you condone copyright infringement? We all know copying is not theft, but the question was "Do you condone copyright infringement, as a prospective leader of the party?" [21:55] <+JohannWeiss> I thought I did answer in the affirmitive, but yes I would condone what is normally considered internet piracy [21:56] <@svulliez> It wasn't exactly that, it was "how do you condone"- which implies that we do by default. [21:56] <+Wilson> Well, I'm not a prospective leader but still yes. [21:56] <+JakeDaynes> In as short an answer as possible - yes. [21:56] <@Rintaran> Sounds like a great quick wrap-up. :) [21:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Then I look like I stand alone with no, my reasons are above :) [21:56] <@svulliez> But yes, I do believe that copying is not stealing, and the traditionally espoused paradigm on the issue is designed to bring profit to labels and not be open to rational criticism. [21:57] <@Rintaran> Alright gentlemen, on to the next question which does come to us from trailblazer: "If C-11 becomes the law, what measures do you think our party could take?" [21:57] <@svulliez> I agree that we should focus on what is possible, but I don't think we should ever hang any sort of file-sharer up to dry. [21:58] <@Rintaran> This time we will begin with Jake. [21:58] <+JakeDaynes> If C-11 becomes law, we need to take drastic measures through educating the general public [21:59] <+JakeDaynes> I think we need to focus the majority of our resources on ensuring that Canadian's can continue living as they are now, by showing how to circumvent such provisions as the online wiretapping sections etc [21:59] <+JakeDaynes> Use of the VPN service is a good start, but I don't know if only that is enough. [21:59] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [21:59] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Jake. Johann, the floor is yours. [22:00] <+JohannWeiss> Petitions, protests and the spreading of information about it and how to deal with it. I wish there was more we could do but we are not in parliament. Short term we should find other organisations who are against it and merge our efforts. [22:00] <+JohannWeiss> Long term, we need to foster a large and fast acting body of members so we can defeat this type of legislation faster. [22:00] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [22:01] <@Rintaran> Shawn, you're up to the plate. [22:01] <@svulliez> I think education initiatives are always desirable, with or without this legislation, but I agree with Jake that making sure the public is aware is very important. [22:02] <@svulliez> We should also highlight the absurdity of these bills via publicity stunts- What are the most extremely silly examples of 'digital locks' and who can we get to violate them? [22:02] <@svulliez> It would be great to bring media companies to court over violating absurd standards, or even just bring attention to MPs breaking their own stupid rules. [22:03] <@svulliez> This would work best with a larger, more engaged body of PPCA members. [22:03] <@svulliez> *end* [22:03] <@Rintaran> James, please weigh in. [22:03] <+Wilson> Well, to take a certain Conservative MP's advice, we could ignore it. As a party we do need to keep public attention on it and hope we can get politicians to take out the bad while leaving the good. *end* [22:04] <@Rintaran> And Travis, you're final batter on this one. [22:04] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> It's really sad, we had a great opportunity to show the ingenuity of the Pirate Party with the PirateVPN. Sadly, it really went nowhere. We have a bad habbit of getting excited about a project, and then as soon as we launch it or do it... we never really follow through with it. (CaPT is another great example of this). [22:04] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> First, I think it's important that we relaunch our services (both CaPT and the VPN) as independently run projects still under the Pirate Party name, and with our resources. They should have their own websites explaining what they do, why they are important, and why supporting the Pirate Party with both membership and financially is important. [22:04] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I was the one who found out that Parliament would be infringing C-11 and we should be keeping the fire up on politicians, if they are going to pass the law then it's our obligation to pick apart everything they do and every detail we can find about them to make sure that no stone is unturned [22:05] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> The project I have been working on lately is searching every Conservative MP's website to find pictures that they are using without credit by reverse image searching every one of them. It's a big project but it's doing things like that which are going to get us legitimate news cover and also show how dumb C-11 is. [22:06] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Finally I would like to expose the people who are funding C-11 (and like legislation) by referencing wikileaks... and draw the big "hey look at why wikileaks is so important even to canada" line. [22:06] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> *done* [22:06] <@Rintaran> Would anyone like a moment to respond to any points? Please indicate "yes" if you do, after 1-minute it will be assumed "no". If all candidates decline, we can move to the next question quicker. [22:06] <+JohannWeiss> no [22:06] <@svulliez> no [22:06] <+Wilson> no [22:07] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> nope [22:07] <+JakeDaynes> no [22:07] <@Rintaran> The next question is courtesy of handler, who asks "What need to be the goals for the party moving forward?" [22:07] <@Rintaran> We will begin with Travis this round. [22:08] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Get elected. [22:08] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We *CAN* get elected, it's not impossible. It's an uphill battle and I recognize that [22:08] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We need to work with all the other minor parties on creating an election reform movement [22:08] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> one that will be at the forefront of the next election [22:09] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> but more than anything else, we need to find at least one riding that we think we can win... and we put all of our available resources into making sure that we win that election. [22:09] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We have YEARS to build up a local presence and get people to think "I am going to vote pirate" [22:09] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> let's use it, and not wait until the last minute [22:09] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> We can have a seat in parliament, and that's our responsibility to our supporters to try our hardest [22:10] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Travis. James, you're next this time. [22:10] <+Wilson> Continue to grow the membership, get a credible presence on university campuses, stay in the news, start putting together riding associations where we can and ,yes, as Travis said, get elected. [22:10] <+Wilson> *end* [22:11] <@Rintaran> Thanks James. Shawn, you have the floor. [22:11] <@svulliez> Redesigning our website. Incentivizing membership. Getting media attention. Further crowd-sourcing. Building a comprehensive platform. [22:11] <@svulliez> We need more people actively recruiting their politically active friends into the party, as well as occupiers, anarchists and other activists. [22:11] <@svulliez> While winning seats is ideal and should be put in our sights (perhaps an election strategy board is required sooner rather than later...) I don't think the name "pirate" is going to carry us into office in the FPTP system, even with an incredible platform. [22:11] <@svulliez> As sad as I am to admit that. [22:12] <@svulliez> We should be focusing on the strategies that are going to open minds and bring us support. It's going to be an adaptive, collaborative process. [22:12] <@svulliez> *end* [22:12] <@Rintaran> Merci Shawn. Johann, the digital mic is yours. [22:12] <+JohannWeiss> I'm starting to feel like I'm mentioning this too frequently, but crowdsourcing. We need improve our online presence so that we are update and relevant. In doing so we can also make ourselves the model for what the government should be, open and accessible to our members, ensuring that they can make a meaningful impact. [22:12] <+JohannWeiss> This should help us gain a better online presence which we should be simultaneously bringing into the real world via local meets. [22:13] <+JohannWeiss> Gaining members and media presence is a goal which may help us get elected in the future. I don't see the point in the rhetoric that keeps getting thrown around about the election, it's 3 years away. We are running to be on the council for one year [22:14] <+JohannWeiss> We need to be building the party, if we want to get elected in the future. We don't need to continusly talk about getting seats [22:14] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [22:14] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Johann. Jake, could you wrap the round? [22:16] <+JakeDaynes> I agree with almost all of the above points by the other candidates, but I'd like to clarify my views on some of the specifics. [22:16] <+JakeDaynes> I agree with Travis stating our top priority needs to be getting elected. I think we need to try targeting a small riding (by small I mean geographical area), in order to utilize our resources as best as possible. [22:16] <+JakeDaynes> Redesigning the website is needed, due to the increase in content and functionality we've seen in the past 2 years. It's served us well up to this point, but a change is needed. [22:16] <+JakeDaynes> Helping promote election reform is a good start as well - a recent study by leadnow showed that out of 13000+ people surveyed, an overwhelming 90%+ supported reform through a collaborative effort between the opposition parties. We need to capitalize on this. [22:16] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [22:16] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Jake. Would anyone like a minute to respond to any points? Please indicate "yes" if you do, after 1-minute it will be assumed "no". If all candidates decline, we can move to the next question [22:16] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Yes [22:16] <@Rintaran> Alright, Travis you have 1-minute. [22:16] <+JakeDaynes> no [22:17] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Shawn, during the conversation that is on my thread, you stated that you would rather not run (or at least put resources) in certain ridings, than "steal votes" from other parties (in particular the NDP). I personally believe that we are not stealing votes, that our voters are usually non-voters, and when we actually do "steal votes" it's because the voters don't have the same confidence in the ot [22:17] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> her parties and see us an an alternative (which then makes those parties think about how they can learn from us). Do you still believe that the Pirate Party should take preference in other parties to support and to alter our decisions based on our effect on other parties? [22:17] *** svulliez has quit IRC: Quit: svulliez [22:18] <+JakeDaynes> (connection issue) [22:18] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> (I guess that question can be to anyone else who wants to chime in as well) [22:18] <+Wilson> still made me lol [22:18] <+JohannWeiss> I know it's directed at Shawn, but I do think we should be strategic on where we run candidates [22:18] *** svulliez has joined #council [22:18] *** ChanServ sets mode +o svulliez [22:18] <@svulliez> Sorry, could you repeat the question TravisMcCrea|Work ? [22:19] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> TravisMcCrea|Work> Shawn, during the conversation that is on my thread, you stated that you would rather not run (or at least put resources) in certain ridings, than "steal votes" from other parties (in particular the NDP). I personally believe that we are not stealing votes, that our voters are usually non-voters, and when we actually do "steal votes" it's because the voters don't have the same c [22:19] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> onfidence in the ot [22:19] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> 7:17 PM <TravisMcCrea|Work> her parties and see us an an alternative (which then makes those parties think about how they can learn from us). Do you still believe that the Pirate Party should take preference in other parties to support and to alter our decisions based on our effect on other parties? [22:20] <@svulliez> Alright, well I do feel as though you're putting words in my mouth, and I encourage people to read your thread. [22:20] <@svulliez> I believe that the issue (or perceived issue) of vote splitting is going to haunt us in everything we do as long as we're in a FPTP system [22:21] <@svulliez> There are going to be times where running "to win" is niave and foolish and makes us all look silly. [22:21] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I guess my question should have been "do you believe that we split votes, and do you view that as a bad thing?" [22:21] <@Rintaran> And that concludes both Travis & Shawn's minutes. Would any other candidates like to respond? [22:22] <+JohannWeiss> Yes [22:22] <+JohannWeiss> To Travis last question, Yes and yes [22:22] <@svulliez> It's not that there isn't a place for it, but to universally run as if the FPTP system is going to work for us and not just hand over another conservative majority could be a grave mistake. [22:23] <@Rintaran> Shawn, you time for rejoinders is up for this question. Please respect the structure so we can move on. [22:23] <+JohannWeiss> I don't believe it was signifacnt that last election but it could be in the future. If it is, and we cause the Conservatives to get a majority, they may then pass a SOPA like bill. We would have done a disservice to Pirate Canadians [22:23] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [22:23] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Johann. James or Jake, do either of you wish to add anything? [22:23] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Rintaran: I kinda asked a new question at the last minute, that's my fault. [22:24] <@svulliez> I have to use up my minute responding to his question, and I have no time for my own issues? I don't think this is exactly fair as I didn't sign up to be individually "called out", but I'll respect the structure. :-I [22:24] <+Wilson> yes. [22:24] <@Rintaran> Wilson, you may now have a minute to speak. [22:24] <+Wilson> I think this discussion presuposses we split the left [22:25] <+Wilson> do we have evidence of that? [22:25] <+Wilson> *end* [22:25] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> ^herehere :) [22:25] <@Rintaran> Jake, anything to add? [22:25] <+JakeDaynes> I agree with Wilson's statement [22:26] <+JakeDaynes> I do however, we should still be strategic on where we run [22:26] <+JohannWeiss> I just want to suggest that we finish this particular issue in the forums. We've all got a lot to say on it, but I don't want the debate to get held up [22:26] <+JakeDaynes> more to ensure better results and less in regards to vote splitting thought [22:26] <+JakeDaynes> though* [22:26] <+JakeDaynes> believe we should still* [22:27] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [22:27] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Jake. There will be one more question, and then we will move on to closing statements. Apologies as we won't get to ask every question posed. [22:28] <@Rintaran> The final question comes from yeho. He asks ""Is there any ideal you hold firmly enough that you are willing to cross the line and possibly risk unjust arrest for your position on it?" [22:30] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Who speaks? :P [22:30] <@Rintaran> My apologies. James will begin this round. [22:30] <+Wilson> damn basement hat [22:32] <+Wilson> Probably, I'm scotch-irish and we can be a stubborn bunch. If I was hauled in for piracy I'd fight it and make sure they had no money to get out of me at the end(not that that is hard atm) [22:32] <+Wilson> *end* [22:32] <@Rintaran> Shawn, you're up. [22:33] <@svulliez> Yes, there are issues that I am willing to put ahead of my personal comfort and safety, but not in the context of being a representative of the pirate party. [22:33] <@svulliez> For example, during the Occupy movement, I marched on the street without a permit. :O Contain your shock and awe please... [22:33] <@svulliez> I am involved to help provide a tangible way to interact with parliament for the disenfranchised. The way to do that best, I feel, is to keep up broad legitimacy in any way possible. [22:34] <@svulliez> We need to, as officials, follow the law whenever possible, even though it is inconvenient and shitty. [22:34] <@svulliez> I am willing to be swayed on individual issues and laws and promotions but it would require something really special. [22:35] <@svulliez> In a non-official capacity, I admit that I jaywalk. [22:35] <@svulliez> *end* [22:35] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Shawn. Johann, if you please. [22:35] <+JohannWeiss> Serious human rights violation (racial lynching for example). This doesn't have to do with any issue related to the Pirate Party though. Our platform is about information flow (government transparancy, IP laws, etc) which is something that can be dealt with through civil channels. [22:35] <+JohannWeiss> I can't say what will happen in the future though. Maybe the government will enact SOPA like laws. I suppose I could get arrested for not following them, but I believe this is usually dealt with using fines not jail time. [22:36] <+JohannWeiss> I've been involved in protests movements which may not have been totally legit, but in Vancouver we tend to only get arrested for being shit-disturbers. [22:36] <+JohannWeiss> and I am not [22:36] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [22:36] <@Rintaran> Thanks Johann. Jake, go ahead. [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> I agree with Shawn's points to such a high degree, I'm going to Pirate them: [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> Yes, there are issues that I am willing to put ahead of my personal comfort and safety, but not in the context of being a representative of the pirate party. [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> For example, during the Occupy movement, I marched on the street without a permit. :O Contain your shock and awe please... [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> I am involved to help provide a tangible way to interact with parliament for the disenfranchised. The way to do that best, I feel, is to keep up broad legitimacy in any way possible. [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> We need to, as officials, follow the law whenever possible, even though it is inconvenient and shitty. [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> I am willing to be swayed on individual issues and laws and promotions but it would require something really special. [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> In a non-official capacity, I admit that I jaywalk. [22:37] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [22:37] <@Rintaran> Alright then. Travis, if you could continue. [22:37] *** CCitizen has joined #council [22:38] *** Rintaran sets mode +v CCitizen [22:38] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Yes, and I have a feeling there will be other "yes"s here tonight. I, however, have proven my commitment to the Pirate Movement. I put myself into legal jeopardy by taking the legal risk of operating websites which should be fully legal, and run them independently when the previous owners fold to legal pressure. I am not just going to be willing to accept legal risk once I am already in trouble... [22:38] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I am willing to put myself out there to do what is right. I am not going to hide my identity or not say what I am doing due to fear of the oppressive (terrorist?) tactics of the United States Federal Government. I moved to Canada to escape their abusive practices and I am not going to let it rule me here. As a member of the political board, it will not be my position to carry out illegal activiti [22:38] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> es... but honestly I don't do things that are illegal (in Canada). I fight the CBSA every time I go through customs because they want me to unlock my computer and I wont do it. Last time they almost took my laptop from me, and I am willing to accept that because while I have nothing illegal on my laptop (if I did, I certainly wouldn't have it on there while traveling), but there is the principal b [22:38] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> ehind it. I am a dude with principals and a dude that isn't afraid to go to jail for what he believes in... The only thing more important than my rights and freedoms is protecting YOUR rights and freedoms. [22:38] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> *done* [22:38] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Travis. [22:39] <@Rintaran> We've just been joined by Patrick Fitzgerald, so I'll allow him the opportunity to respond. [22:39] <@Rintaran> The question, as posed by yeho was ""Is there any ideal you hold firmly enough that you are willing to cross the line and possibly risk unjust arrest for your position on it?" [22:39] <@Rintaran> You have two minutes Patrick. [22:42] <@Rintaran> It appears he's not as near the keyboard as we thought. Would anyone like a minute to respond to any points? Please indicate "yes" if you do, after 1-minute it will be assumed "no". If all candidates decline, we can move to the closing comments. [22:42] <+JohannWeiss> yes [22:42] <+CCitizen> I wish I had more time to prepare but I think that we should be fighting internet censorship by big media interests. They seek to change the rules that exist already to make things that are legal today, illegal tomorrow. That alone will make criminals of us all if we let them. [22:43] <@Rintaran> Johann, you have a minute to respond. Feel free. [22:43] <+JohannWeiss> Short bit: Wanted to give some props to Travis. He's putting himself in legal jeopardy for the cause and that is something that deserves respect [22:44] <@Rintaran> Excellent, would anyone else like a moment to comment on this question? [22:44] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [22:45] <+JakeDaynes> no [22:46] <+Wilson> no [22:46] <@svulliez> I'll just say that I respect people who choose to break the established laws for their beliefs, but that in the context of the PPCA there should be no requirement for people to participate or be associated with technically illegal action. [22:46] <+JohannWeiss> I don't know if I need to state that as well, but definitly [22:46] <+JakeDaynes> agreed [22:46] <@Rintaran> Alright then. We've had a fair number of questions make their circle amongst the candidates. Each candidate will now be given 5-minutes for their closing statements. We will begin with Shawn, then Johann, the Jake, Travis, James, and finally Patrick. [22:46] <+JohannWeiss> I would never ask someone to do that [22:47] <@svulliez> I respect Travis's work immensely. But I also respect the right of others to not participate in the same way he is, or be associated with his actions. [22:48] <@svulliez> Alright. My name is Shawn V, you should vote for me because I am realistic about our effectiveness and the tactics we should take, I'm in it for the long haul, and I want to see some real results. I've put an obscene amount of time into this party and I am one of the party's best active recruiters. [22:48] <@svulliez> I would like to see more crowdsourcing, a better website with more incentive for membership and a more comprehensive platform. [22:49] <@svulliez> I am free to be contacted whenever you want, I am a reasonable guy and I am sympathetic to most ideologies. I am a good connector and I think I could make a great media rep or Leader. [22:50] <@svulliez> Whatever happens, I want to see the Pirate Party flourish. I have done what I can to see this happen, even as an unpaid full-time volunteer during the time where the party was largely unsympathetic to my ideas. [22:51] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Shawn. Johann, your closing remarks if you please. [22:51] <+JohannWeiss> I feel that I've stated most of my positions already. Priorities: improve the website, become the model for what government should be (use crowdsourcing and be transparant), and establish a physical presence. This will grow our membership and encourage active participation. [22:52] <+JohannWeiss> Additionally we should engage the general public by providing them with information and tools to deal with modern internet issues (privacy and, anonymity, etc) [22:52] <+JohannWeiss> The best election strategy is to grow our membership as stated previously, while campaigning for electoral reform [22:53] <+JohannWeiss> I'm devoted to a member driven party that is the model of a democratic organisation [22:53] <+JohannWeiss> *end* [22:53] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Johann. Jake, your closing remarks? [22:53] <+JakeDaynes> My name is Jake Daynes, and I won't ask you to vote for me, because I believe that actions speak louder than words. I am glad for being given the chance to help with the party and will continue in any capacity possible. I see all those involved in the party as dear friends, though we may not always agree - I believe we will all work together to prepare this party for the future, and help it continue growing. [22:54] <+JakeDaynes> I believe that even with our current limited resources, we can still be a major contender in Canada's political circles, and I will do whatever I can to help us reach that point. [22:54] <+JakeDaynes> Reaching out to non-voters is a challenge that is not unique to just us, and we should begin research on what other parties have tried in the past, while attempting to innovate with marketing ideas that only we, as technologically inclined and analytical minds can. [22:54] <+JakeDaynes> In closing, I wish all of my fellow candidates the best, and hope to see them in the #council channel more often :) [22:54] <+JakeDaynes> And one last interjection [22:55] <+JakeDaynes> Because some people feel that I answered the last question unfairly - I don't believe that the party could afford for an official representative to be arrested, but outside of said capacity, I would go to jail for any one of the party ideals. [22:55] <+JakeDaynes> and I will NEVER, EVER, give up my rights for corporate interests, even if it means my incarceration [22:56] <+JakeDaynes> *end* [22:56] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Jake. Travis, your wrap-up? [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> The Pirate Party of Canada has a bright future. I am excited to be a member of the party and to potentially help shape it's legacy. I do have concerns with some other candidates (as said... actions do indeed speak louder than words), but I know in the end every person who is in this channel would be an amazing asset in one way or another to the development of the Pirate Party. [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> I started PirateWho.org to bring the pirate ideology to North America and to explain it to every day people. I have taken the legal responsibility to ensure that our culture is preserved and to carry on the legacy of websites that are destined to be great, and I am about to acquire one that already has a great legacy and is in the top 5,000 websites on the Internet. I am not seeking to be leader o [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> f the party, but I am seeking your approval to be one of the people who help shape the party. [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> You have a person who is fully dedicated to the cause, if I am arrested, then I will send out blog posts from jail using pen and paper. I am not just in this for a power trip or anything like that, I could care less.. I can honestly help the party without being on the political board, but I also think that becuase of that drive and because of that desire to serve the party, I will make a great boa [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> rd member. A vote for me isn't a vote for a radical on the board, look at my stance: I don't believe that we should be promoting copyright infringement. I think that we need to remain focused on protecting peoples rights, and through protecting their rights it's impossible to prosicute them for copyright infringement. [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Protect the protections, not the act. What I mean by that is piracy could end tomorrow, everyone could up and decide to just buy things, and buy their backup copies... but the rights are still important. The rights also apply to other aspects of our life, and by making our focus on the rights we cover a lot more people. Also on a political side, by protecting rights instead of the actions themselv [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> es, then we convert people who get turned off from the idea of "piracy" to be turned on by the idea of "protecting their rights". If you look at all the most famous people in our movement, that is the exact stance they take: Geist, Lessig, Doctorow, etc. Learn from those who are doing it right, copy them... isn't that what we are all about? [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Some people say I take this party too seriously, I say that the Pirate Party is worth it. We are not Europe, and unfortunately we are becoming more like America everyday... but I have faith in Canadians that they see the changes that are happening and are not prepared to go down without a fight. We need to remind America that without their hat, their head is going to get cold. I embrace the Pirate [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Wheel, and believe that humanism needs to be the core of our party. Less focus on copyright, and more focus on civil liberties and the people who our policies help. [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Giving me your approval for the board, is a vote for a (potential) candidate for the party whose ultimate goal is to make the party look good and for a person who is just as focused on creating a legitimate political party as he is focused on the rights that party protects. [22:56] <+TravisMcCrea|Work> Thank you. [22:57] <@Rintaran> Thank-you Travis for that whirlwind. James, your closing remarks? [22:58] <+Wilson> I would firstly like to thank Rintaran for taking the time to moderating this shindig, my opponents and those who came to get a better idea what direction the candidates here would take the party. I believe this party can make the jump into credible electoral territory. We simply need to fight all that much harder for what other parties take for granted. [22:58] <+Wilson> I hope to work closely with all of you in the coming years either on the council or as a candidate. [22:59] <+Wilson> thank you and good night *end* [22:59] <@Rintaran> Thank-you James. Now Patrick, if you'd like to make some closing remarks, you have five minutes allotted. [23:00] <+CCitizen> Since I am personally not seeking party leadership, just approval for the Political Board position I'll be sure to keep this brief. I can say that I look forward to working with everyone present here as well as those who are unable to attend. I would also like to give Travis some props like Johann did for walking the plank and putting himself at personal legal and civil risk for his beliefs. Something that I dont believe I could [23:00] <+CCitizen> go so far with myself but I am glad to see and support others doing. It's my hope that everyone seeking a position on the Political Board gets a seat and while I have my own personal preferences for 'Leader' I can say that we'll actually look forward to getting things done like Pirate Party of Canada seats in 2015! *end* [23:01] <@Rintaran> Thank-you to each and every one of our candidates, and to all of the interested parties that submitted questions or viewed the debate this evening. [23:01] <+JohannWeiss> And thank you Rintaran, you did great [23:02] <+JohannWeiss> You'd make a good cat-herder. [23:02] <@Rintaran> A transcript will be going up on the PPCA wiki for everyone to access, and I will post a direct link in the forum. I hope tonight has helped you decide whom to support in the upcoming election. [23:02] <@Rintaran> Feel free to continue chatting in the #debate channel. It will remain open until no one's there anymore. :)
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